"Circumcision is modern"
More and more German parents circumcise their sons. While in the last years circumcision was only performed due to medical reasons now more and more parents circumcise their sons just after birth without medical reasons. The experts name two reasons: The doctors are used to circumcise boys because of the rising numbers of foreign boys born in Germany and don't hesitate to circumcise German boys too. The other reason is that the parents want to give their boys more 'sexual pleasure' because circumcised men are supposed to be better lovers."
Taken from a small, German magazine and translated to English by a CIRCLIST member.
The upward trend for circs in Germany must be - to a certain extent - attributed to the endeavor of the CUTTING CLUB in Dinslaken. (Internet: cuttingclub@gmx.de) Their young and very active (and attractive) President, who I had the privilege to accommodate with his friend already twice here in France, has appeared on many German TV talk shows and obviously did a good job in advertising the circ benefits. If you go to their website, you will certainly find interesting information there, but you need a working knowledge of German, as it's all in German - sorry no English.
In addition, the younger set, not being affected so much any more by the Anti-Jewish trauma, does not no longer equate to be circed as automatically being a believer of Judaism. Add to this the rather large impact of the Turkish population (the biggest of all European countries - and there are also nice Turkish gay boys around, you know), it's no wonder that circs are becoming increasingly popular in Germany.
As you know, normally in Europe few gets circumcised except of medicinal or religious reasons. I am not gay but bisexual, although I only had sex with one man until now (and with 5 women). This one guy was clipped, too. And I liked it ;-) I know how it can smell under a foreskin and so I'm also happy with my condition. By the way it looks good. I was circumcised in my early teens because my foreskin was very tight and I had seen several other circumcised boys and loved the way it looked. When the opportunity to came up, I jumped at the chance.
Well, the girls... Of course they expected to see an uncut cock (and when I fucked the first time with a girl I was a little bit scared to show her my cut cock, because I already heard her laughing at me. But (believe it or not) ALL of them (six) reacted like this: they began to smile and were really interested in the different look. 3 girls never had sucked a cock before, and mine was the first. They told me that they always didn't like the smell but my penis doesn't smell like that, and that's why she checked it out for the first time. Oh, what a great feeling!
Like I wrote you I only had sex with one man before in my life, and this one was clipped, too. OK, there was this other boy in my former class: One day after swimming in the Rhine (where I'm living next to, only 1km away) we began to rub our dicks (he rubbed mine and so did I rub his). He had a foreskin. I enjoyed letting it slip the glans up and down. I really liked that! He didn't say anything to my clipped one, perhaps he didn't even think about it (or he didn't notice it)?
My doc didn't take that much foreskin off. Nevertheless my glans is uncovered when flaccid. But when it's erected I can pull the rest of my foreskin halfway up. But I really would like to - at least once - suck an uncut cock, just to know the difference.
Your final question: I don't think that I would try to get my boyfriend cut, at least not under normal circumstances i.e. that he doesn't wash his cock and so it smells, you know? If he himself wants it like that (cut), I would help him. But if he is happy with his foreskin (and me too) then there is no reason to change this condition.
Andi (Germany)
I just returned from a four week trip to Germany and I have a question I hope one of you German based members might answer for me. It seems the rate of circumcision in Germany is much higher than what is normally reported. I spent a few days at spas in the south west and about thirty to fourty percent of the guys had been cut. Furthermore, in watching the sexuality journal shows on tv (Liebe Suende; Wahre Liebe) every story that featured a naked male showed a circumcised man. Can parents just request that their son be circ’d at or after birth? I didn’t think that that was the case in Germany. Surely not all the guys I saw (and there were many) would have been medical cases or adult circs. My girlfreind can’t shed any light on the matter... can anyone else?
John
Your are right, there are cut Germans. And there are many Muslims in Germany, too.
I don't believe that you will find 50 % or more cut rate whereever in the German population. However, the cut rate is very dependent on the location. Let me show you an example:
In some areas we have up to 16 % Turkish people in bigger cities like Stuttgart or Berlin. I mentioned Stuttgart, because that area might be an example how the foreign population is influencing the German population.
In Stuttgart are many, many Turkish (Muslim) people working hard for Daimler Chrysler. Going 50 km (or say 30 miles) north one will be in an area, where also many foreign people are working in the automotive industry for Audi, part of Volkswagen, especially Turkish and also people from Yugoslavia (high percentage Muslim, too).With a low birth rate in the German population and a very high birth rate in the Muslim population the classes in the schools have a Muslim majority. With a typical German circumcision rate of 15 % and a 100 % Muslim circumcision rate one easily will find out that the big majority of the young German population in some local areas is circumcised.
In addition, in the same area (!) only a few years ago about 20 % of the population were American soldiers, some with their families but most of the soldiers without - always looking for German women.
These soldier-women - relationships might have been dollar currency exchange rate dependent but the final result is that the (female?) population is very familiar with circumcision of US American origin. I think that in these US occupied areas the circumcised state of the soldiers had in influence also on the medical stuff. Circumcision was real for them for many years, not only Jewish history. There was a little more than this influence, there was real friendship in the US-German-clubs and between families. Many Germans learned from the Americans that circumcision of the newborn is a reality in their families and didn't less refuse when the doctors recommended this as measures against the typical problems their boys had like inflammations as balanitis. I am living in this area and our doctors do not recommend ric but when a problem arises they use it not as the last but as one of the first measures.
The American soldiers left the area. With them many of our friends. But it is a fact that at least some Germans learned from them that circumcision is not only an African rite or a Jewish specialty. ...with an influence on the circ rate.
In our neighborhood (influenced over 40 years by the US American occupation and with a high Muslim rate), about 20 % of the young Germans (below an age of 20) are cut. However, this a local rate. When going out to the villages 20 miles away it will shrink to 5 or 7 % - where it is done for urgent medical needs only.
I am always impressed when reading the cost levels for circumcisions in US or UK. Muslim circumcisers charge about 60 Euro, German medical stuff is available for 50 to 70 Euro, too.
Kind regards
Joe (Germany)
In Germany it depends on the region to which you go. In the east there are much less boys cut then in the west. The reason: In the GDR it was for several years forbidden to circumcise and so the boys with phimosis where either not treated at all, or if they were treated, there skin was stretched brutally by the pediatricians, which does not improve the situation properly.
In Frankfurt/M is the German "circ centre" - this is a region with up to 40 % cut, some partly, some fully. The first reason for that is that there gather a lot of gay boys who prefer circumcision more often than hetero guys. But also the state Hessen has a quite tough and strict medical control in kindergartens and school, where boys are regularly examined and up to their 15 years get checked at their foreskins, which I have experienced myself. If there occurs only the slightest problem with the foreskin, after the age of four, no matter if this is a phimosis, adhesions which didn’t solve or reappear or balanitis boys are immediately circumcised. Further in the late seventies until1983 (ca.) in many hospitals in this area infant circumcision was promoted so that very many boys in my age were cut without medical indication. This has changed a bit I am afraid, so that many younger boys today have foreskin problems again.
In the area of Cologne boys are also quite frequently examined and a practice comparable to Frankfurt is common there. In elementary school classes up to 35 % of the boys are cut, because the circs are done there very early.
This is different in the south. In the Stuttgart area in depends a lot on the school level, how much boys are circumcised. In the "Gymnasiums" (the highest level) parents (and their sons) are often more aware of foreskin problems, so that they do not only treat their boys by circumcising or resolving the adhesions, but also these boys are a lot more used to wash under their (uncut) foreskins, which I could observe at school, while showering in sport gyms or swimming pools.
Although there are sometimes as in my sports group 20 % cut (without the Turkish) there are a lot of boys who this have phimosis in the puberty or after. Some years ago I asked a thirteen year old boy who played in my tennis team, and was about one year younger, why he didn’t pull back his foreskin while showering. He then showed me his foreskin and let me try to pull it back, which was not at all possible, because he had a full phimosis, with an opening of 3mm only and a glans which was not visible. He was very sad he couldn’t pull his skin back, but he was too frightened at this age to let him self circumcise, though a doctor already had seen his phimosis, but said he could wait until he was 12. But his parents didn’t arrange a circumcision at that time.
The boy waited until he was seventeen, because he was afraid of his classmates who could slander about his penis - although he told me about at least two other classmates cut.
In my group boys also made silly jokes about other circumcised until we discovered that one of these fools was himself cut, what he didn’t want to admit. He was half cut because of a tight ring as an infant and when we asked him to pull forward his skin we saw that he could not cover his glans at all. After this situation where one of them made a fool of himself, the jokes where over.
I also had recognized that some of these slandering guys had a phimosis themselves which should have been cut. Of course they didn’t retract their skins even with 18 years - that’s why I today support general neonatal circumcision very much.
In our region near Stuttgart boys are used to be circumcised for their phimosis very late often very short or even in puberty. The average age is nine years here, under general anesthetic and with an 80 to 90 % cut by the more exact freehand cut. In earlier years boys were also cut partly - as many of my peers, but not today. Today boys also get cut because their adhesions didn’t solve after seven years, which I think is very good, because solving adhesions hurts as much as being circumcised without anesthetic. I myself had to experience this several times until I was five years old and was cut off the tip of the foreskin as a preventive measurement, because they thought, that my foreskin wouldn’t develop full width because of my strong adhesions. However I might have been glad if they circumcised me at the beginning under a real anesthetic and I wouldn’t have had to feel all that pain.
If you’ve got further interest in German circumcision you may of course ask.
Yours Michel.
It is not very usual in the german society to circumcise boys or men without any medical or religious reason. Let me say about 10 - 12 % of all men are cut. So circumcision usually is no theme for any public discussion.
The first time I heard about circumcision was at school (I was 13 or 14 years old). The teacher tried to give us some short explanations about this procedure which were not very detailed. The teacher didn't dare to say too much - I think he was very embarassed in telling about this theme. I became curious and wanted to have look at a circed cock. This time I had no chance to because all the boys of my class were uncut.
Years later, I was 19 and still had finished school, I was liable for military service in the german army. One day after we had a sports lesson we took a shower together in our shower room. I was starting to check every naked cock in this room. There was a little man, his name was Jo, with a nice circumcised dick. His cock wasn't too big. The shaft had a normal length. The big darkred glans always was uncovered. I was very surprised by that dick.
I decided that my cock will also have to look like his one day, but I always had much fear about the procedure. I didn't dare to have my circ until today.
Clemens
For non Islamic and non Turkish people it is not easy to get any information regarding circumcision in Germany. There was a publication in "Der Stern" some years ago, describing such a circumcision event in Cologne. There is an annual circumcision in the Islamic community of Castrop-Rauxel which is at the second Saturday of October. This is open for all Moslem and boys and adults (converts) from France, Belgium The Netherlands and Germany are using this event for circumcision. As I heard the circumcision of the boys are public for all attending guests, adults are circumcised in separate rooms. The boys stay over night to control complications if necessary. Sometimes an additional action happens during Easter time, if there is a demand. The number of circumcisions at such a day is near to 200. The cost is 300 DM (food and beverage included). I am not sure, what the circumciser is charging for his job, but the profit is for the Islamic community and their social work. If the circumciser is doing his job in the home of the patient he charges only about 150 DM.
Routine Infant Circumcision in Germany
I found out that, there was during the 70's a movement to circumcise boys at birth practiced by a lot of physicians here in Bavaria.
Also in the 70s, routine infant circumcision (RIC) has been promoted and done frequently in the Giessen area (near Frankfurt, Germany), maybe influenced by the US military stationed in that area. When I lived in Giessen for a while in the early/mid 80s, I noticed a circumcision rate of about 30-50% among teenaged boys (observations at indoor swimming locker rooms and nude outdoor swimming). RIC appeared to have been suddenly abolished, because from a given age downward, the proportion of circumcised boys was only 5-10%, which is typical for Germany (circumcisions due to medical reasons, mostly phimosis).
I heard of another area near Kassel where an Arab pediatrician convinced a lot of mothers to have their sons circumcised during the first few months after birth. According to a friend of mine, his two younger brothers (12 and 14 at the time he told me) had been circumcised, and both brothers claimed that virtually no boy in their school classes had a foreskin.
East German Police Inforce Circumcision On Recruits
Someone raised the question of circumcision being the norm in the former East German Police. I can give a few facts on the situation. But the facts give rise to more questions which I cannot answer and wish some German member would research.
The rumors are true. The work seems to be decision of one man Dr. Otto Dietz who was the chief medical office of the Volkpolizei. He published several articles in German so he was not hiding too much. The fact is that he forced circumcision on all Vopo recruits. His articles do not mention the word "forced" but they were and he writes about thousands of circumcisions. Reports are that if the recruit had a son extreme pressure was put on him to bring his son in. And apparently if the recruit has a brother some pressure was put to try and get the brother as well.
In another of his articles he brags about his invention the "Dietz circumcision shears" for doing them faster. This went on from the early 50's till the 70's. I am uncertain whether Dietz is still alive.
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I an unclear how Dr.Dietz could feel so secure of his position operating as it were in Moscow's backyard. How was he able to get away with something (forced adult circumcisions) which American military doctors could at times just get away with. How did he become so motivated? Was he gay? Was he a holocaust surviver getting his revenge?
Personally I have always suspected this had some relation of Soviet spy efforts. Two Soviet spies in the US and one in Canada were discovered by having foreskins when the records of the men they were impersonating stated they were circumcised. I have wondered if spies were selected from this pool of circumcised men in the Volkspolizei.
This could be researched but one would have to be in Germany and speak German. Thousands of these men are still alive and could tell their story.
Circumcision Mandatory in Wilhem's German Army and Popular in European Courts
There are several German groups that help men in Germany get circumcised. They are listed below.
GERMAN GROUP #1:
My friend Rolf has moved and also his telephone is changed. But I have his p.o. box address and suggest you write him if you want to make any plans. I also need to write him to get his new phone number.
Rolf D. Assmann
P.O. Box 200118
53131 Bonn
GERMAN GROUP #2:
I'm Peter and the english-speaking representative of the german "Cutting-Club" as already mentioned in my registering-mail.
First of all I'd like to inform you about the cutting-club and correct some things that were discussed here.
Cutting Club
PO Box 100405
- KW: CLHP -
D-46524 Dinslaken
Germany
Telelphone +49 2064 36466 (German Spoken Only)
eMail-Adress: cuttingclub@eurocirc.org
http://www.eurocirc.org/cuttingclub (German Text Only)
2.) Why Cutting-Club?
In germany it is not usual to be cut. Most of us do have a foreskin and are not informed about the advantages of circumcision.
We help everybody who is interested through his circumcision. It doesn't matter if the interested person is gay, young and beautiful or not.
Gay circumcised men can become a member of the cutting-club. In our magazine or our yearly club-party they can meet other circumcised men, which is normally not very easy in germany.
What is INFO-CIRC?
INFO-CIRC is the heterosexual part of our organisation. Many heterosexual men do not want to be informed by a gay-club and if we present ourselves on TV we use INFO-CIRC to reach all men, not only the gay.
If you have any questions feel free to ask me this way. I hope I'll find the time to translate our info-material these days so you can get more detailed information about our organisation.
Peter.
GERMAN GROUP #3
Pro. Circ.
P.O. Box 11 45
34315 Hobichtwald
Germany
Telephone (05606) 9893
Analysis of German Study Shows Penile Hygiene Worsens As Child Matures
Routine Infant Circumcision is a very rare procedure in Germany and therefore I became interested in the question: are there problems and disadvantages in german male population due to their uncircumcised status. I am interested in such arguments showing the benefits or disadvantages of circumcision. So I add theses article with german data concerning the discussion of 'better hygiene'.
Many people think circumcision is unnecessary for a better hygiene. They state that the hygienic conditions in western countries are well developed, so why boys should become circumcised who can simply wash their genitalia. These people would be right (relatively) if boys would regularly clean their penis'.
Germany is a very good developed western industrial country. There is the possibility of good hygiene. Most boys are uncircumcised. Do they practise good hygiene?
German medical data is not cited in international literature very often. But in the context of my argumentation I will use it. (I will not tell authors' names because I do not know if I am allowed to (copyright etc.) but the following data is from official german medical literature.)
1. Data from a long-term study of about 23.000 boys in the former German Democratic Republic showed that despite to good hygienic conditions and increase of foreskin-retractibility related to the age of examined boys the personal genitalia-hygiene decreased by age. Measure of hygienic status were smegma-retentions.
Some numbers:
In three to four year old boys, 69% could clean their penis at least by partial retraction of prepuce. In 53% of them the foreskin was fully retractable. From these boys 18% had smegma-retentions due to bad hygiene. These data seems to be not so dramatic, but it shows that nearly 20% of parents neither cleaned their sons' penis nor started teaching them how to do themselves.
The numbers become worse then:
In 81% of twelve-year-olds the prepuce was fully retractable and 93% could clean their penis adequately. But despite this in 36% smegma-retentions were found. This increased in the fifteen-year-olds up to 41%. That means nearly half of uncircumcised young men had a bad genital.hygiene.
Is this reason to call for routine infant circumcision? The data shows:
1. The possibility of good hygiene does not imply its use.
2. If someone is against circumcision because of good hygienic conditions, he is rsponsible to teach the boys to properly clean their penis and to regularly inspect these boys to ensure that they follow good hygenic procedures throughout childhood and adolescence.
3. Circumcision would make hygiene easier. I fear these german data does not differ from that in other western countries so much. Because of this I told. Perhaps someone can need it in his argumentation (for example in discussion with any anti-circumcison thinking person).
What are the reasons for above called data?
I think many parents in Germany are still ashamed teaching their children about their body especially their genitalia. In Germany many boys recognize their penile problems (phimosis etc.) during puberty. Why did not their parents see it in earlier years and looked for therapy? Will parents who did not recognize their sons penile problems exert of his genitalia-hygiene? If they would have taught them the necessity of foreskin retraction they would have recognized their phimosis, wouldn't they? And in the case that a boy can retract his foreskin as a young boy, why he does not retract (and clean) it as an older boy?
Another german study (published in 1992) showed that about 61% of mothers - asked about their knowledge concerning circumcision without any former information - did not know anything about circumcision, its potential benefits, penile problems suffering for an operative solution or the relation between circumcision and hygiene.
The study showed that knowledge correlated to age of mothers and the profeesional qualification:
Mothers: "Do you know what circumcision is?" Percentage of "Yes" responses.
| 1. Without profession | 13% |
| 2. Expert worker, low qualification | 23% |
| 3. Expert worker, high qualification | 55% |
| 4. With professional study | 62% |
| 5. With university study | 82% |
87% of german population belong to profession classes 1-3. Three quaters of these people do not know anything about circumcision!! That means there is a lack of knowledge. On the one hand regarding circumcision on the other hand regarding the personal hygiene of genitalia. If parents would know more about the necessity of a good penile hygiene as prophylaxis against infections, cancer and so on, more of them would choose circumcision as a health-measure, too. If there would be more enlightement there would be a better hygiene in boys but there would be an increase of circumcision rate, too.
54% of the parents, questioned in this study, started thinking about 'the' surgery only after little information about prophylaxis of carcinoma and the meaning of circumcision for hygiene. I suppose there is a real need of education in Germany.
I believe that if so many boys have bad penile hygiene it would be better if more of them would be circumcised. Better a country with average 61% circumcised boys than a country with 61% of people not even knowing about it.
Lennart (Germany)
German Videos
Just found your web site and wanted to let you know that I concur with your comments about German circumcision becoming more popular. I just purchased a YMAC International film from Germany. While the majority of the teen boys are uncut, at least one German boy in each scene has been circumcised. This seems to be a new trend, as I have many other older German videos and the boys were all uncut. I'm told via friends on the Internet that circumcision is becoming quite the fad with the gay crowd in Germany. Hopefully it will spread to the straight teens as well. Thanks for a great web site.
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How Turks in Berlin Celebrate the Traditional Circumcision Ceremony
